UB Hand, Redux
Some replies to the comments on this post:
if you believe that ur opponent has one of the hands that u have listed just call and make a decision on the turn. If he has one of the hands u listed, there is no way he will fold you might as well make the big raise on the turn.
- A few people said that they prefer to make a decision like this one on the turn instead of the flop. I disagree with this logic. If you hit your hand on the turn, the board will be very scary for someone with one pair or two pair, and even for someone with a set. If you hit on the turn, you make not make any more on the hand. If you miss on the turn, you're very unlikely to have the correct odds to draw at your hand any more and you will have to check and fold to any reasonable bet.
I also disagree that there is "no way" that my opponent will fold any of the hands I listed or the hands he might have in this situation. It's very possible that a typical Internet player would fold hands like AK, KQ, KJ, or even T9 on this flop. He will also presumably fold bluffing hands (like 77) and semi-bluffing hands (like AQ, AJ, or a flush draw). This fold equity is very important in my decision to play the hand the way I did.
With blinds at 30/60 and a lot of chips do you really have to put them all-in here? I imagine it might be possible to see the river for cheap with the way raiser played the flop.
It is however a satellite tournament, so I suppose you are the kind of player would rather double up here 47% of the time or go do something else.
- No, of course I don't HAVE to put them all-in on this hand. There are situations where I wouldn't play the hand like this. But in this winner (and runner-up) take all format, this is a great opportunity to start amassing chips. I guess I'm "the kind of player" who makes a play like this, which is only to say that I think this is the right way to play it in this situation. And again, yes I can see the river more cheaply by check-calling the whole way, but if you have twelve outs to the stone nuts and three more outs that mighe be good with two cards to come, why would seeing the river cheaply be your goal? Another way to phrase this question is, "How strong of a hand do you need to flop to want to put your whole stack in the pot early in a tournament?" This hand was plenty strong for me to do it.
I like the check-raise option here. The hands that you listed would probably call, but you may get a lot of other hands to bluff/fold or make a weak play and then fold here. A bet would be around 400-600 I presume, and your reraise all-in would look scary to pretty much any hand except for QJ.
I'm not saying they'd fold with anything but the nuts, but you'd at least having folding equity.
The reason I don't like leading on the flop is because I'd hate to be called and miss the turn. One card to go, a 1800 chip pot and about the same left in your stack. Also, if you get raised, they've pot-committed themselves against your stack so you're put into a spot that your drawing to double up.
With 45 big blinds, I'd rather pick up another 12 big blinds and play from there than flip a coin to get to 90 big blinds. There is still a lot of play left and 90 big blinds doesn't have attraction it'll have later. That is why I'd try to get folding equity.
- The check-raise option isn't bad here, but check-raising all-in is a large overbet, which often indicates a flush draw. I actually think I have MORE fold equity the way I played it as opposed to just check-raising for all my chips, but that's debatable. Isn't it scarier if someone leads into you for 300, you make it 600, and then they make it 2880 as opposed to just check, bet 300, raise to 2880? I'm more scared by the former than the latter.
Betting and getting flat called isn't ideal, but it does disguise your hand if you hit the turn. Regardless, I don't think fear of getting flat-called is a reason to check when you flop a big draw out of position like this.
As I said earlier, I don't think someone who raises my bet is pot-committed, depending on what hand they have. But again, debatable. What would you do with AK if someone lead into you for 300 and then re-raised when you raised them? I would fold.
There is a lot of play left, you're right, but I've gotta get chips sometime and this is a great opportunity. Also you assume that the person will just fold ("I'd rather pick up another 12 blinds..."), when I think that is definitely an incorrect assumption.
I think I just call the 300 raise here and see what comes on the turn. Because really, if you re-raise all-in, what are the two possible outcomes? One, you get called and you are a coin flip AT BEST (and there's really no reason to put it on the line on a coin flip when the blinds are that low). Two, he folds and you drag the 1350 in the pot, giving you 4230.
Will 4230 really put you in that much better a position to cash? I'm not familiar with the pace of that tournament's structure, but it doesn't seem like you were in any pressure at that point. Why not wait for a better spot?
I might have even chosen option A....this may have gotten you to the turn for as little as 300 chips. That's just a dangerous hand to play out of position, because of situations just like this one.
- For thoughts on waiting to see the turn, see above. Regarding, "Why not wait for a better spot?," do you really get a lot of shots that are better than this? Can you describe the sort of spot you're waiting for? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm interested to know what sort of hand people wait for to get their money in. Aces or kings preflop? Flopping a set? Flopping the nuts? I guess I think you can't just wait around for these situations to come up and then hope you get action when you put your chips in. If the only advantage of getting to the turn cheaply is to conserve chips for a better chance to get your money in, then it doesn't make sense to me. This is a good chance to get my money in, especially if I have some fold equity.
I don't mind your play with that flop. Your opponents raise was for the minimum and your all-in re-raise could well represent QJ or better yet QsJs. One important point that you've left out is the size of your opponents stacks.
- I wouldn't make this play with either of those hands, unless I knew my opponent was very willing to call me, but I guess a random player could have those hands.
I don't have the hand history anymore, so I can't tell you exact stack sizes, but it was early in the tournament and neither of my opponents had many more, if any more, chips than I did.
Wow, that got long. Sorry. I would love to keep this discussion going if people have further thoughts on this hand...
if you believe that ur opponent has one of the hands that u have listed just call and make a decision on the turn. If he has one of the hands u listed, there is no way he will fold you might as well make the big raise on the turn.
- A few people said that they prefer to make a decision like this one on the turn instead of the flop. I disagree with this logic. If you hit your hand on the turn, the board will be very scary for someone with one pair or two pair, and even for someone with a set. If you hit on the turn, you make not make any more on the hand. If you miss on the turn, you're very unlikely to have the correct odds to draw at your hand any more and you will have to check and fold to any reasonable bet.
I also disagree that there is "no way" that my opponent will fold any of the hands I listed or the hands he might have in this situation. It's very possible that a typical Internet player would fold hands like AK, KQ, KJ, or even T9 on this flop. He will also presumably fold bluffing hands (like 77) and semi-bluffing hands (like AQ, AJ, or a flush draw). This fold equity is very important in my decision to play the hand the way I did.
With blinds at 30/60 and a lot of chips do you really have to put them all-in here? I imagine it might be possible to see the river for cheap with the way raiser played the flop.
It is however a satellite tournament, so I suppose you are the kind of player would rather double up here 47% of the time or go do something else.
- No, of course I don't HAVE to put them all-in on this hand. There are situations where I wouldn't play the hand like this. But in this winner (and runner-up) take all format, this is a great opportunity to start amassing chips. I guess I'm "the kind of player" who makes a play like this, which is only to say that I think this is the right way to play it in this situation. And again, yes I can see the river more cheaply by check-calling the whole way, but if you have twelve outs to the stone nuts and three more outs that mighe be good with two cards to come, why would seeing the river cheaply be your goal? Another way to phrase this question is, "How strong of a hand do you need to flop to want to put your whole stack in the pot early in a tournament?" This hand was plenty strong for me to do it.
I like the check-raise option here. The hands that you listed would probably call, but you may get a lot of other hands to bluff/fold or make a weak play and then fold here. A bet would be around 400-600 I presume, and your reraise all-in would look scary to pretty much any hand except for QJ.
I'm not saying they'd fold with anything but the nuts, but you'd at least having folding equity.
The reason I don't like leading on the flop is because I'd hate to be called and miss the turn. One card to go, a 1800 chip pot and about the same left in your stack. Also, if you get raised, they've pot-committed themselves against your stack so you're put into a spot that your drawing to double up.
With 45 big blinds, I'd rather pick up another 12 big blinds and play from there than flip a coin to get to 90 big blinds. There is still a lot of play left and 90 big blinds doesn't have attraction it'll have later. That is why I'd try to get folding equity.
- The check-raise option isn't bad here, but check-raising all-in is a large overbet, which often indicates a flush draw. I actually think I have MORE fold equity the way I played it as opposed to just check-raising for all my chips, but that's debatable. Isn't it scarier if someone leads into you for 300, you make it 600, and then they make it 2880 as opposed to just check, bet 300, raise to 2880? I'm more scared by the former than the latter.
Betting and getting flat called isn't ideal, but it does disguise your hand if you hit the turn. Regardless, I don't think fear of getting flat-called is a reason to check when you flop a big draw out of position like this.
As I said earlier, I don't think someone who raises my bet is pot-committed, depending on what hand they have. But again, debatable. What would you do with AK if someone lead into you for 300 and then re-raised when you raised them? I would fold.
There is a lot of play left, you're right, but I've gotta get chips sometime and this is a great opportunity. Also you assume that the person will just fold ("I'd rather pick up another 12 blinds..."), when I think that is definitely an incorrect assumption.
I think I just call the 300 raise here and see what comes on the turn. Because really, if you re-raise all-in, what are the two possible outcomes? One, you get called and you are a coin flip AT BEST (and there's really no reason to put it on the line on a coin flip when the blinds are that low). Two, he folds and you drag the 1350 in the pot, giving you 4230.
Will 4230 really put you in that much better a position to cash? I'm not familiar with the pace of that tournament's structure, but it doesn't seem like you were in any pressure at that point. Why not wait for a better spot?
I might have even chosen option A....this may have gotten you to the turn for as little as 300 chips. That's just a dangerous hand to play out of position, because of situations just like this one.
- For thoughts on waiting to see the turn, see above. Regarding, "Why not wait for a better spot?," do you really get a lot of shots that are better than this? Can you describe the sort of spot you're waiting for? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm interested to know what sort of hand people wait for to get their money in. Aces or kings preflop? Flopping a set? Flopping the nuts? I guess I think you can't just wait around for these situations to come up and then hope you get action when you put your chips in. If the only advantage of getting to the turn cheaply is to conserve chips for a better chance to get your money in, then it doesn't make sense to me. This is a good chance to get my money in, especially if I have some fold equity.
I don't mind your play with that flop. Your opponents raise was for the minimum and your all-in re-raise could well represent QJ or better yet QsJs. One important point that you've left out is the size of your opponents stacks.
- I wouldn't make this play with either of those hands, unless I knew my opponent was very willing to call me, but I guess a random player could have those hands.
I don't have the hand history anymore, so I can't tell you exact stack sizes, but it was early in the tournament and neither of my opponents had many more, if any more, chips than I did.
Wow, that got long. Sorry. I would love to keep this discussion going if people have further thoughts on this hand...
posted by Chris Fargis at 7:27 PM
5 Comments:
chris.... its your buddy ginzo... this book you just wrote is way too loooonggg...!!
we need to find you a hobby.... a changeup from the poker grind....this looks like it driving you nuts
mike
Regarding, "Why not wait for a better spot?," do you really get a lot of shots that are better than this? Can you describe the sort of spot you're waiting for? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm interested to know what sort of hand people wait for to get their money in. Aces or kings preflop? Flopping a set? Flopping the nuts? I guess I think you can't just wait around for these situations to come up and then hope you get action when you put your chips in.I think that good tournament players can be more apt to chip away to build up chips. As in catch some small hands, steal some pots with bluffs, etc. I wouldn't think it would be neccesary for a good player to put all his chips in as a coinflip at this point. It is a good way to build up chips here in a satellite tournament (do you do the same in a regular situation?).
If a good player must get his chips in early, do it when you're fairly certain to be a big favorite (overpair into maniac, set, made large straights and flushes). Save the tricky hands for when you really need to make moves.
Isn't it scarier if someone leads into you for 300, you make it 600, and then they make it 2880 as opposed to just check, bet 300, raise to 2880? I'm more scared by the former than the latter.I wonder why the hell I was making a min raise on the flop. What do you do if I make it 1200? I suppose you still push but you can't say you have a lot of fold equity like last time unless your re-raise makes it dead certain to me that you have QJ, and even so it can't be certain enough.
I don't really know the answer to the hand, I really asked to figure out what your thinking was (which I understand and it makes sense). But I think that maybe in tournament poker there is some kind of fine line between putting all your chips in and rather chipping away into a pot.
shunny
In the early stages of a tournament (especially online), I have observed many players willing to call all-in with top pair, top kicker or even less...despite the size of the re-raise. Part of the reason for this is that the player hasn't had time to get a read on his opposition or a feel for the tourney.
It's a pity your draw didn't hit. You entrusted your tournament life in the early stages to the attempted intimidation of a raiser and random chance.
Did u win an Aruba satellite last night?
No, I didn't win an Aruba satellite.
Post a Comment
<< Home