You Tell Me
Ok everyone. How did I play this one? You tell me.
UB $100 tourney today. Blinds 100-200. I have about 6000, my opponent has about 7000. Opponent limps in LP. I raise to 825 with AQ, the blinds fold, and he calls. Flop AsKsJx. He bets 200 (the minimum), I make it 1000, he calls. Turn is a blank 7. He bets 400, I make it 1200, he calls. River is a king. He checks, I bet 1500 (about half what I have left), he goes all-in, I call, he shows QT.
If you say I should have checked behind on the river, what range of hands do you give him? If his range for not folding the river is AJs-A5s, AJo-A8o, KQ, KJ, and QT, I have 59% equity (wow do I sound like Matt right now). I'm not saying I SHOULDN'T have checked behind on the river, just that he calls me with a lot of hands that I beat.
Won a seat in the $530 Pokerstars tourney tomorrow in a $22+R turbo super. Those things are so sick. At one point I was the chip leader and I had 2.5 big blinds in my stack. SICK.
Here are some hands from my 15-30 session last night. I'm going to try just typing out what happened in these hands because people have been complaining (and rightly so) about the ugly Eurobet histories. Let me know if this method is better.
- I limp with 88 after one limper. One limper behind me and the small blind calls. Flop Qc7s4s. Limper bets, I raise, everyone else folds, limper calls. Turn Ks. He checks, I bet, he calls. River Td. He checks, I check, he has Ah5h.
- I raise on the button with KsTs after one limper. Both blinds and the limper calls. Flop ATT rainbow. Checked to me, I bet, they all call. Turn is a 7. SB checks, BB bets, limper calls, I raise, SB folds, BB calls, limper calls. River is a 9. BB checks, now the limper bets out. I raise, BB folds, limper re-raises, I call expecting to see 99 or 77 or T9 or who knows what. He has A9o. I guess he made his two pair on the river. ...
- I raise with QQ, one player cold-calls, both blinds fold. Flop A63, I bet, he calls. Turn 6. I bet, he calls. River T, I bet, he raises, I call thinking he played his big ace well. He shows J4o. Wow.
- I limp on the button with 44 after four limpers, one of whom posted under the gun and the SB calls. Flop KK4. Checked around to me and I check. Normally I would bet here but I really flopped the whole thing and don't mind people making hands and draws on the turn. Turn Q. Limper 1 bets, Limper 2 calls, Limper 3 calls, I raise, L1 calls, now L2 makes it $90. L3 folds, I make it $120 and they both call. River is a T. L1 bets right out, L2 raises, I just call now fearing KT and KQ against 2 opponents, L1 calls. Now, you guess the hands. Don't cheat.
If you said L2 open limped with AK, you were right.
If you said L1 had A2o, you're some sort of psychic and you should use your talent for monetary gain. Wow buddy. A2, huh? My favorite part was when he bet the river on the KKQT4 board into two people who had capped it on the turn. Brilliant.
UB $100 tourney today. Blinds 100-200. I have about 6000, my opponent has about 7000. Opponent limps in LP. I raise to 825 with AQ, the blinds fold, and he calls. Flop AsKsJx. He bets 200 (the minimum), I make it 1000, he calls. Turn is a blank 7. He bets 400, I make it 1200, he calls. River is a king. He checks, I bet 1500 (about half what I have left), he goes all-in, I call, he shows QT.
If you say I should have checked behind on the river, what range of hands do you give him? If his range for not folding the river is AJs-A5s, AJo-A8o, KQ, KJ, and QT, I have 59% equity (wow do I sound like Matt right now). I'm not saying I SHOULDN'T have checked behind on the river, just that he calls me with a lot of hands that I beat.
Won a seat in the $530 Pokerstars tourney tomorrow in a $22+R turbo super. Those things are so sick. At one point I was the chip leader and I had 2.5 big blinds in my stack. SICK.
Here are some hands from my 15-30 session last night. I'm going to try just typing out what happened in these hands because people have been complaining (and rightly so) about the ugly Eurobet histories. Let me know if this method is better.
- I limp with 88 after one limper. One limper behind me and the small blind calls. Flop Qc7s4s. Limper bets, I raise, everyone else folds, limper calls. Turn Ks. He checks, I bet, he calls. River Td. He checks, I check, he has Ah5h.
- I raise on the button with KsTs after one limper. Both blinds and the limper calls. Flop ATT rainbow. Checked to me, I bet, they all call. Turn is a 7. SB checks, BB bets, limper calls, I raise, SB folds, BB calls, limper calls. River is a 9. BB checks, now the limper bets out. I raise, BB folds, limper re-raises, I call expecting to see 99 or 77 or T9 or who knows what. He has A9o. I guess he made his two pair on the river. ...
- I raise with QQ, one player cold-calls, both blinds fold. Flop A63, I bet, he calls. Turn 6. I bet, he calls. River T, I bet, he raises, I call thinking he played his big ace well. He shows J4o. Wow.
- I limp on the button with 44 after four limpers, one of whom posted under the gun and the SB calls. Flop KK4. Checked around to me and I check. Normally I would bet here but I really flopped the whole thing and don't mind people making hands and draws on the turn. Turn Q. Limper 1 bets, Limper 2 calls, Limper 3 calls, I raise, L1 calls, now L2 makes it $90. L3 folds, I make it $120 and they both call. River is a T. L1 bets right out, L2 raises, I just call now fearing KT and KQ against 2 opponents, L1 calls. Now, you guess the hands. Don't cheat.
If you said L2 open limped with AK, you were right.
If you said L1 had A2o, you're some sort of psychic and you should use your talent for monetary gain. Wow buddy. A2, huh? My favorite part was when he bet the river on the KKQT4 board into two people who had capped it on the turn. Brilliant.
posted by Chris Fargis at 9:28 PM
15 Comments:
Chris: It's late, but I'll comment on the UB tourney. With a coordinated flop, I think one needs to respect a smooth call of a raise like yours. I guess your opponent was being cute or frightened with the small bets upon flopping the momentary nuts. But when one pushes a raise on a coordinated flop like THAT one with only top pair and is smooth called, warning flags should be waving in your head. I don't like your raise on the turn or your push on the river. That said, I don't like his play at all. He had the flush draw to be concerned with and then the possibility of you having a boat on the river. In his shoes, I would have pushed harder...definitely betting larger post-flop and if possible absolutely re-raising you. In summary, you were severely out-flopped and didn't heed the warning of his smooth call of your raise, while he was begging to be out-drawn.
Bill,
Thanks for your comment. Do you think my range of hands for him is wrong? I was "severely outflopped" in this case, but the fact that he happened to flop the nuts doesn't mean I played the hand poorly, necessarily.. I don't think he played the hand very well either. So you would just call the turn and river?
Chris, yes in this case I would have called his small bet on the turn and checked the river. This decision is based on both flop texture and his post-flop call of your raise. I couldn't have put him on as big a range of hands as you have. I would have thought two pair (A,J or K,J)excluding A,K since he didn't raise pre-flop or (QT) for the straight.
Bill,
My only issue with your last post is that when you just call the turn you don't get a chance to check the river. He's going to bet into you again and you will have to (presumably) call.
If you give him only the range you mentioned, shouldn't you fold on the flop?
Why did you limp with 88 in EP after one limper? Raise and you win the hand - IMHO.
Keep in mind I did end up winning the hand after limping but raising with 88 after one limper is also fine.
Chris - My final post on this subject as it was never my intention to get into a "posting contest" with you. To answer your question, I wouldn't have suspected your opponents hand in the range that I mentioned until his call of your raise AFTER the flop. Prior to that call, I'm in agreement with how you played the hand.
Now, for whatever reason your opponent is making tiny bets with the nuts and calling your big raises. I suspect that your opponent either (1) likes to toy with his opponents when holding the nuts and/or (2) has what I term a "fear factor" problem in his game meaning that he's really concerned about a flush card or the board pairing and losing his nuts so to speak. He very well may have checked to you initially on the river because he feared that you filled up a boat. Your half-stack bet on the river might have convinced him that you weren't full after all as he probably assumed you would go all-in if you indeed had it. This is all speculation. Both choices are bad poker weaknesses of your opponent and it's going to continue to cost him a lot of chips in the future (Hope he's not reading this).
Getting back to how I would have differed from you AFTER having the flop raise called, I would call the tiny turn bet and your opponent may very well have checked to me on the river regardless because he feared the boat. Perhaps he would have made another tiny bet on the river. I would have called that also, lost and still be alive in the tourney. If he made a large bet on the river, I would be convinced that my top pair was likely second-best to a variety of possibilities with that resulting board and muck.
Oops...correction to my last comment, where I mention mucking top pair (should be top-two). Even with top-two and top kicker on the end with that board, I'll lay it down to a large river bet (if the opponent indeed makes it) that jeopardizes my stack given the previous action on the hand.
Bill,
It's not a posting contest. The back-and-forth about hands like this is a really great learning tool, I think.
IMHO just calling the turn and then folding to a bet on the river is lunacy. But that's just my opinion.
The first thing I thought about the UB hand was that opponent knows how to get aggressive player to throw his stack at him when he has the nuts. The min bet and smooth call and then another really small bet and another call of a raise is really alarming and I don't think you can say your opponent has just those hands.
It wasn't exactly a brilliant way to play seeing as there is a flush draw on the flop, but if you're willing to gamble he did get you to bet into him not once but twice.
When you say, "The min bet and smooth call and then another really small bet and another call of a raise is really alarming and I don't think you can say your opponent has just those hands," what range of hands would you give him? It's fine to say you think my range is bad, but tell me what range you put him on. Surely he doesn't play this way only with the nuts...
QT. KJ. AJ.
The min bet is a big deal. I figure he's somewhat competent by the play he's made, cause I don't think it's a horrible one. If he's competent he's not going to min bet top pair with any kicker. He probably wouldn't with two pair, but I'll say he has those hands simply for the possibly.
Also, I thought about it and betting small into a flop with a flush draw isn't too bad here because both the Ace and King of spades is out. If you are raising some high Ax's and KQ-KJ, etc, he doesn't have to fear the flush draw.
Hence, opening weak here into an aggressive player ended up working well. I think he made mistake(s) on his play after the flop betting. After you raise the turn he might as will move in. And I suppose he checked the river because he feared AK, but it's still kind of silly.
Then again, he may not be very competent, but even so I don't think he's going to call a big raise on the flop then re-open the betting small on the turn with top pair/weak kicker or mid pair.
shunny from livejournal
I just can't see giving him that small a range. If you can accurately peg online players to that small a range, congrats to you, but I can't. Min-betting in that situation is often a probing bet with top pair or a complete bluff, in my experience.
His play here ended up working well, but that's not the point. What if I show up with 99? Then he wishes he check-called the flop. The actual outcome isn't that important. It doesn't take a genius to flop the nuts and make the maximum off of an aggressive player who also flopped a hand.
As you said about the min bet, a less common but usable tactic for a tricky player is to min bet in hopes of getting bluffed at when you have the best hand. Since min betting into a large pot is quite a horrible move most of the time, person who is behind the min bettor will figure he's a bad player or has a weak hand and will try to get him off his hand.
And so when putting him on a hand for instance on the river, I don't see him making those plays with Ace low kicker or that midpair. Unless this is the kind of player who usually plays in $10+1 SNGs at Party, I don't think those hands are viable holdings, I think it's more likely he's being really tricky.
If you have 99 behind his min bet of 200 into a pot of 1950 what do you do? I guess from the sound of it you fold or call, but don't you consider trying to push him off the hand?
I don't think putting him on a hand after he raises me all-in on the river does much good. But on the flop, I still think medium aces and non-ace pairs are within his range.
If I have 99 here and he bets, I fold the flop.
Post a Comment
<< Home